Never did any kind of dive on Toto and always knew them for "Rosanna," "Hold the Line," and "Africa." But then last year I heard "Georgy Porgy" for the first time on a retrospective compilation of Columbia dance tracks that was issued in 1990. Great fusion of soft rock and disco there. Didn't make the American top 40, but featured fellow labelmate Cheryl Lynn on vocals.
Your intro on why people love the music they do was really interesting, Pe. (Of course I think that being a psychologist.)
I'm a Toto fan, but they showed up after my youth and I loved them because of two things. They were on a flight I was on in 1980 and we had to traipse past them to leave the plane. And their song "Africa" hit the spot due to my obsession with living overseas. (And it was a great tune.) It's weird to look at why we love what we love. I think the factors you've listed are right on.
Still, it doesn’t explain everything 😁 (that’s the nerd in me), so my journey to uncover the reason behind my disco affliction must continue 😁 Anyway, any reason is a good one, because I love writing and publishing far too much. Thanks for reading and for reacting, Ellen!
Anything on Silk Degrees is great. But I must admit, Tamara, this is one of the songs I know the least. I gave it another listen after seeing your reaction, and you’re absolutely right, it’s a great song!
I think I got spoiled getting to hear your voice tell these stories. Luckily, a very nice British man filled in for you semi-admirably.
I know all the hits of Boz Scaggs, but I never really dug into his music very deeply. So this was very informative.
He definitely fits in with the Yacht Rock crowd more than soul and r&b at least based on SiriusXM channels. He definitely fits in that sweet spot where genres merge and blend.
Haha… I was waiting for the first reaction telling me to stop the read-out-loud version. Congrats, Steve, you’re the first 😁
I like trying out new things. This initiative did not deliver what I had hoped for, though that does not mean I will abandon the idea of doing a “video” version. This format may not work, but I am already hard at work on something else.
Somebody on Substack (maybe a Tune Tag?) turned me on to Silk Degrees earlier this year and I’ve really been enjoying it. Prior to that, I’d only ever heard a handful of Boz Scaggs songs. I think I need to broaden my listening to include some of his other albums.
His other seventies albums are not quite on the same level, Mark, but they are very good as well. On the B-side, I go a little deeper into which of his other albums I also like.
Thanks, Kristin. It is funny, isn’t it? It says a lot about that period and how, before disco became the massive juggernaut it would later become, the borders between AOR and R&B were far more fluid. It is exactly the kind of story and detail I love discovering and writing about. Thanks for reading, reacting, and sharing, Kristin, it is much appreciated.
This was great, Pe! Like you, I've always preferred Rick James to Prince (a hill I will die on 🤣). Now seriously, I love Prince and I think he was a genius, but I don't enjoy ALL of his music. I only own a few of his many records on vinyl, the ones that truly resonated. I own more of Rick's discography than I will ever own of Prince's.
Music resonates for mysterious reasons, and you've made excellent points here. There's also something about the texture of the sound. You know, if I think where our tastes overlap most (Rick James, SOS Band, Isley Brothers, etc.) there is, undeniably, a very present R&B element, with infectious beats, strong vocals, and overall, a polished sound. Prince was a lot more experimental, so his music didn't always sound polished because that was his deliberate artistic decision (and part of his genius). Therefore, for me, while I stand in awe of his talent, the deliberately uncomfortable experimental sound of some of his records doesn't always scratch where my musical ears itch.
I loved finding out more about Boz Scaggs, whom I didn't know about. Lowdown is such a catchy tune!
Thanks, Andy 😁 Your points make perfect sense, but just like mine, they still don’t fully explain why we both prefer Rick James. In my case, I absolutely love his repertoire, there’s just something in his sound that appeals to me immediately 😁 Anyway, I’m sure I’ll come back to that topic at some point. Hope you enjoy Side B, and have a great weekend!
You guys are nuts! 😊 Prince is in such a different stratosphere as Rick James. Don’t get me wrong, I do love me some R J, but Prince is a top five artist of all time. I think because he was so prolific and didn’t care about editing out a few half baked songs, some people fell off his bandwagon. In terms of vocal ability there’s no comparison. I’m going to make a custom playlist for both of you of songs that never got radio played, but are some of the best compositions he or anyone else had ever written.
LOL 🤣🤣🤣 When you say “a” top five artist, do you mean for you? Because that’s subjective. I mean, if we’re talking vocal ability, Mariah beats the shit out of pretty much everybody else, and I still have to push in a way that almost feels like rowing in condensed milk for some of you guys to give one of her songs a listen 🤣 So it’s not about that.
I can’t speak for Pe, but I’ll tell you how I see/feel about the whole Prince situation: he was weirder. And I don’t do weird musically speaking unless they are Fantastic Negrito. I like big, belted, perfectly supported, traditionally executed vocal lines with a very strong soulful vibe (which Negrito can do and usually does; Prince COULD do but didn’t always choose to). I want a radio-friendly atmosphere. My life is spicy, messy, and complicated enough. I want my music to be easy to digest. I don’t embrace quirky, experimental or innovative music in the way some of you guys do. Prince, despite his colossal success, wasn’t “commercial” or “mainstream” enough for me to fully like him. The tracks I like most are his main hits. The worst you can do to me is give me a playlist of “forgotten” or “not-talked-about-enough” tracks. When I tell you I don’t fully belong in the Substack world, this is what I mean. I’m not weird or quirky enough when it comes to music. I like commercial stuff, I go to the gym, I obsess about my appearance, I’m more of a jock, I want a radio-friendly hook, I want my music to hit my comfort zones. So that’s my issue with Prince. He couldn’t always give me what I needed. What he had to give, objectively, had more value. But it wasn’t always what I needed in the format that I needed it. Does this make sense?
You make total sense. But don't your music needs change over the years? If you look back, can you see an evolution (as slight as it may be 😁) in your musical tastes or needs?
We all belong in the Substack world, so I will choose to ignore that comment...If anything, you belong in it more than most.
Yes, of course, I mean a top-5 artist for me. Even if part of me believes that Prince's impact on the global musical landscape puts him in the top-5 artists, objectively.
What are your feelings about slow jams? I don't know if they fall into the quirky category for you. His song "Damn U," to me, is super sexy and has a killer backing band. And in terms of vocal gymnastics, the way Prince goes from a whisper to a scream, from a baritone to falsetto, never fails to wow me. And don't worry if it doesn't work for you. I always like the challenge of trying to turn you on to a song or two.
Yes I do see an “evolution”, but not in the direction most would expect. With certain things (i.e. bad vocals) I’m even less tolerant than I was, for example. Genres-wise, I have branched out a bit, but not by much. I’ve always listened predominantly to classic soul and its derivatives.
Thanks for what you say about my place in the MusicStack. I usually feel I don’t belong because I’m so different and don’t share the same tastes and cultural references as most.
What Prince could do with his voice and any instrument he touched was brilliant. That doesn’t mean it’s all to my liking. Again, what you’re describing just now (dynamics), Mariah and so many others can do a thousand times over, but it’s not just the skill itself you admire but the style.
His New Generation years are among my favourite of his, and I did like this track (yes, I would also call it a slow jam). The instrumentation and production are top-notch. His vocal skills (in terms of ability and execution) are sharp as ever. But I don’t fully like all of his artistic choices. I wish he sang it in a less experimental way. In a less “I’m going to bend this note to give the impression I’m about to go out of tune but I’ll save it at the last minute, just to play a bit”. Makes me nervous. My life is dangerous enough (was for sure). I want my music to feel more traditional and predictable.
First, my apologies gents for entering the arena a little late, it has been a packed weekend.
I agree with Andy, Steve. The fact that I do not love Prince 100% has nothing to do with his artistic qualities or his place in the pantheon of important and influential artists. It is simply personal taste. I tried, I genuinely tried, to fully get into his albums. I own almost all of them. Granted, I was responsible for catalogue at Warner Belgium for a number of years, and one of the perks was being able to order whatever you wanted from the catalogue 😁 Though even then, there were Warner artists I did not bother collecting.
Still, there is not a single Prince album that I truly love from start to finish or would play in its entirety. But the songs I do love, I really love. One of the strangest examples is My Name Is Prince. Do not ask me why I love that song so much, but I do. I recently picked up the twelve inch and now happily play the full eight-minute mix, I absolutely love it.
The fact that I cannot always explain why I adore certain artists completely, like RJ, and feel less connected to others is genuinely fascinating to me.
And yes, I did see Prince live once. Sadly for me, it was probably his worst concert in Belgium. Not even a full hour and no encores. His live reputation was apparently flawless, except for that evening 😁
Lowdown was always a great jam, and you get at why: you could hear it as disco or just as a sublime R&B groove. It met the listener where they were or are, because it still bends to you. And the earliest Columbia albums do have hints of that, once or twice making me think of Bill Withers.
That’s a great point, Emm. There is definitely a connection to Bill Withers, who also transcended the traditional R&B mould. It almost feels as if they met somewhere halfway between R&B and rock. Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts. Wishing you a wonderful weekend!
AOR here in the UK was way behind the US in the late seventies. Despite a growing market amongst aging baby boomers, there was a fixation on the youth market as a result of punk. In September 1978, after Lido Shuffle and What Can I Say had been hits for Boz and Silk Degrees made the Top 20, UA MD Howard Berman criticised the industry for neglecting young adults who didn't relate to the excesses of contemporary rock and were too young for middle of the road fare; there was only one radio DJ taking a deep dive into this stuff on the BBC at the time. Things really didn't really change until the CD began to take off in 1984.
You’re describing the European situation perfectly, Paul, although I would add that it’s the early baby boomers 😁 Thanks for reading and reacting. Have a great weekend!
Reading your post it made me realize how seldom I listen to his music today. I really liked it back in the late 70s and early 80s though! Favorites would probably be the big U.S. hits: Lowdown, Lido Shuffle (although I never have been able to figure out those lyrics!), Breakdown Dead Ahead, and Jojo. The last one Frank, in particular really likes as we heard it a couple times on our journey back from Palm Springs!
I always knew Frank had impeccable taste 😁 I love his ballads as well. “We’re All Alone”, which later became a hit in Rita Coolidge’s version, is also one of my favorites. Thanks for reading and reacting, Dan. Have a great weekend!
And this is why it was so important for Punk to come and revitalize Rock and Roll, which by the mid-70’s was quickly becoming Granny music! Where was the rebelliousness that had been present just 15 to 20 years prior? How did this music represent teen angst? Where was the ambition and drive to change the world?
The Ramones first, and then everything that followed were like the EMT’s electric paddles to the heart of the music!
Interesting perspective 😁 I do think punk played a role, especially in the UK, where it shook up the musical landscape a bit and reintroduced a certain raw energy and urgency.
That said, I sometimes feel its impact gets overstated a little, particularly when people frame it as the sole force that “saved” music. In the US, its influence felt far more limited and underground at the time, and if you look at the broader American rock scene into the early eighties, it still seems every bit as corporate and polished as the rock of the mid-seventies.
So I’ve always wondered, beyond the attitude and aesthetics, how much did punk really change in the mainstream?
Punk was the cue ball on the pool table at the break shot. I agree that it was pretty fringe. But without it, all those new wave and alternative rock bands of the ‘80s, and later grunge too would not have been.
In various places around the world it also had a social impact far larger than you’d have thought it could based on the size of its audience; politically, in fashion, and in other arts.
Before I started researching for this newsletter, I had exactly the same assumption, that punk was a massive force in shaping what came next. One of my biggest surprises during the research was discovering that its impact was not quite as large or as universally important as it is often made out to be.
Sure, it contributed important things, especially the DIY spirit and the idea that you did not need to be a virtuoso to make music. But particularly in the US, its actual influence was relatively limited. The late seventies New Wave and No Wave scenes in New York arguably proved far more consequential.
Another thing that struck me is how many similarities there are between the rise of disco and the rise of punk. That is definitely on my radar, and I plan to write about it further down the line.
Grunge falls a little outside my usual scope, although I was working in the music industry during that period. I know many artists later cited punk as a major influence, but I sometimes feel they were referring more to an idealised version of punk than the reality of what it actually was.
And perhaps that is the key point, it is that idealised version that keeps making people treat punk as the be all and end all, when in truth the story is more nuanced than that.
Never did any kind of dive on Toto and always knew them for "Rosanna," "Hold the Line," and "Africa." But then last year I heard "Georgy Porgy" for the first time on a retrospective compilation of Columbia dance tracks that was issued in 1990. Great fusion of soft rock and disco there. Didn't make the American top 40, but featured fellow labelmate Cheryl Lynn on vocals.
In many ways, it is a song closely related to Lowdown, Random Various! Georgy Porgy is such a great track. Thanks for reading and reacting!
Your intro on why people love the music they do was really interesting, Pe. (Of course I think that being a psychologist.)
I'm a Toto fan, but they showed up after my youth and I loved them because of two things. They were on a flight I was on in 1980 and we had to traipse past them to leave the plane. And their song "Africa" hit the spot due to my obsession with living overseas. (And it was a great tune.) It's weird to look at why we love what we love. I think the factors you've listed are right on.
Still, it doesn’t explain everything 😁 (that’s the nerd in me), so my journey to uncover the reason behind my disco affliction must continue 😁 Anyway, any reason is a good one, because I love writing and publishing far too much. Thanks for reading and for reacting, Ellen!
Love me some Boz. Harbor Lights is one of my favorite songs of all time.
Anything on Silk Degrees is great. But I must admit, Tamara, this is one of the songs I know the least. I gave it another listen after seeing your reaction, and you’re absolutely right, it’s a great song!
So glad you did, it’s a hidden gem.
I think I got spoiled getting to hear your voice tell these stories. Luckily, a very nice British man filled in for you semi-admirably.
I know all the hits of Boz Scaggs, but I never really dug into his music very deeply. So this was very informative.
He definitely fits in with the Yacht Rock crowd more than soul and r&b at least based on SiriusXM channels. He definitely fits in that sweet spot where genres merge and blend.
Looking forward to side B!
Haha… I was waiting for the first reaction telling me to stop the read-out-loud version. Congrats, Steve, you’re the first 😁
I like trying out new things. This initiative did not deliver what I had hoped for, though that does not mean I will abandon the idea of doing a “video” version. This format may not work, but I am already hard at work on something else.
I love your video readings! It could be audio too, if that is easier for you. None of the AI voices are better than yours.
haha.. thanks Steve. Video will come back definitely but I would like to do more with it.
Somebody on Substack (maybe a Tune Tag?) turned me on to Silk Degrees earlier this year and I’ve really been enjoying it. Prior to that, I’d only ever heard a handful of Boz Scaggs songs. I think I need to broaden my listening to include some of his other albums.
His other seventies albums are not quite on the same level, Mark, but they are very good as well. On the B-side, I go a little deeper into which of his other albums I also like.
This was such a great post!!
I love that “John Travolta rehearsed his Saturday Night Fever dance routines… to “Lowdown”.”
Thanks, Kristin. It is funny, isn’t it? It says a lot about that period and how, before disco became the massive juggernaut it would later become, the borders between AOR and R&B were far more fluid. It is exactly the kind of story and detail I love discovering and writing about. Thanks for reading, reacting, and sharing, Kristin, it is much appreciated.
This was great, Pe! Like you, I've always preferred Rick James to Prince (a hill I will die on 🤣). Now seriously, I love Prince and I think he was a genius, but I don't enjoy ALL of his music. I only own a few of his many records on vinyl, the ones that truly resonated. I own more of Rick's discography than I will ever own of Prince's.
Music resonates for mysterious reasons, and you've made excellent points here. There's also something about the texture of the sound. You know, if I think where our tastes overlap most (Rick James, SOS Band, Isley Brothers, etc.) there is, undeniably, a very present R&B element, with infectious beats, strong vocals, and overall, a polished sound. Prince was a lot more experimental, so his music didn't always sound polished because that was his deliberate artistic decision (and part of his genius). Therefore, for me, while I stand in awe of his talent, the deliberately uncomfortable experimental sound of some of his records doesn't always scratch where my musical ears itch.
I loved finding out more about Boz Scaggs, whom I didn't know about. Lowdown is such a catchy tune!
Can't wait for Side B!
Thanks, Andy 😁 Your points make perfect sense, but just like mine, they still don’t fully explain why we both prefer Rick James. In my case, I absolutely love his repertoire, there’s just something in his sound that appeals to me immediately 😁 Anyway, I’m sure I’ll come back to that topic at some point. Hope you enjoy Side B, and have a great weekend!
You guys are nuts! 😊 Prince is in such a different stratosphere as Rick James. Don’t get me wrong, I do love me some R J, but Prince is a top five artist of all time. I think because he was so prolific and didn’t care about editing out a few half baked songs, some people fell off his bandwagon. In terms of vocal ability there’s no comparison. I’m going to make a custom playlist for both of you of songs that never got radio played, but are some of the best compositions he or anyone else had ever written.
LOL 🤣🤣🤣 When you say “a” top five artist, do you mean for you? Because that’s subjective. I mean, if we’re talking vocal ability, Mariah beats the shit out of pretty much everybody else, and I still have to push in a way that almost feels like rowing in condensed milk for some of you guys to give one of her songs a listen 🤣 So it’s not about that.
I can’t speak for Pe, but I’ll tell you how I see/feel about the whole Prince situation: he was weirder. And I don’t do weird musically speaking unless they are Fantastic Negrito. I like big, belted, perfectly supported, traditionally executed vocal lines with a very strong soulful vibe (which Negrito can do and usually does; Prince COULD do but didn’t always choose to). I want a radio-friendly atmosphere. My life is spicy, messy, and complicated enough. I want my music to be easy to digest. I don’t embrace quirky, experimental or innovative music in the way some of you guys do. Prince, despite his colossal success, wasn’t “commercial” or “mainstream” enough for me to fully like him. The tracks I like most are his main hits. The worst you can do to me is give me a playlist of “forgotten” or “not-talked-about-enough” tracks. When I tell you I don’t fully belong in the Substack world, this is what I mean. I’m not weird or quirky enough when it comes to music. I like commercial stuff, I go to the gym, I obsess about my appearance, I’m more of a jock, I want a radio-friendly hook, I want my music to hit my comfort zones. So that’s my issue with Prince. He couldn’t always give me what I needed. What he had to give, objectively, had more value. But it wasn’t always what I needed in the format that I needed it. Does this make sense?
You make total sense. But don't your music needs change over the years? If you look back, can you see an evolution (as slight as it may be 😁) in your musical tastes or needs?
We all belong in the Substack world, so I will choose to ignore that comment...If anything, you belong in it more than most.
Yes, of course, I mean a top-5 artist for me. Even if part of me believes that Prince's impact on the global musical landscape puts him in the top-5 artists, objectively.
What are your feelings about slow jams? I don't know if they fall into the quirky category for you. His song "Damn U," to me, is super sexy and has a killer backing band. And in terms of vocal gymnastics, the way Prince goes from a whisper to a scream, from a baritone to falsetto, never fails to wow me. And don't worry if it doesn't work for you. I always like the challenge of trying to turn you on to a song or two.
https://youtu.be/Box4XDvBSgE?si=mlcygC431uJEDRKe
Yes I do see an “evolution”, but not in the direction most would expect. With certain things (i.e. bad vocals) I’m even less tolerant than I was, for example. Genres-wise, I have branched out a bit, but not by much. I’ve always listened predominantly to classic soul and its derivatives.
Thanks for what you say about my place in the MusicStack. I usually feel I don’t belong because I’m so different and don’t share the same tastes and cultural references as most.
What Prince could do with his voice and any instrument he touched was brilliant. That doesn’t mean it’s all to my liking. Again, what you’re describing just now (dynamics), Mariah and so many others can do a thousand times over, but it’s not just the skill itself you admire but the style.
His New Generation years are among my favourite of his, and I did like this track (yes, I would also call it a slow jam). The instrumentation and production are top-notch. His vocal skills (in terms of ability and execution) are sharp as ever. But I don’t fully like all of his artistic choices. I wish he sang it in a less experimental way. In a less “I’m going to bend this note to give the impression I’m about to go out of tune but I’ll save it at the last minute, just to play a bit”. Makes me nervous. My life is dangerous enough (was for sure). I want my music to feel more traditional and predictable.
First, my apologies gents for entering the arena a little late, it has been a packed weekend.
I agree with Andy, Steve. The fact that I do not love Prince 100% has nothing to do with his artistic qualities or his place in the pantheon of important and influential artists. It is simply personal taste. I tried, I genuinely tried, to fully get into his albums. I own almost all of them. Granted, I was responsible for catalogue at Warner Belgium for a number of years, and one of the perks was being able to order whatever you wanted from the catalogue 😁 Though even then, there were Warner artists I did not bother collecting.
Still, there is not a single Prince album that I truly love from start to finish or would play in its entirety. But the songs I do love, I really love. One of the strangest examples is My Name Is Prince. Do not ask me why I love that song so much, but I do. I recently picked up the twelve inch and now happily play the full eight-minute mix, I absolutely love it.
The fact that I cannot always explain why I adore certain artists completely, like RJ, and feel less connected to others is genuinely fascinating to me.
And yes, I did see Prince live once. Sadly for me, it was probably his worst concert in Belgium. Not even a full hour and no encores. His live reputation was apparently flawless, except for that evening 😁
Lowdown was always a great jam, and you get at why: you could hear it as disco or just as a sublime R&B groove. It met the listener where they were or are, because it still bends to you. And the earliest Columbia albums do have hints of that, once or twice making me think of Bill Withers.
That’s a great point, Emm. There is definitely a connection to Bill Withers, who also transcended the traditional R&B mould. It almost feels as if they met somewhere halfway between R&B and rock. Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts. Wishing you a wonderful weekend!
AOR here in the UK was way behind the US in the late seventies. Despite a growing market amongst aging baby boomers, there was a fixation on the youth market as a result of punk. In September 1978, after Lido Shuffle and What Can I Say had been hits for Boz and Silk Degrees made the Top 20, UA MD Howard Berman criticised the industry for neglecting young adults who didn't relate to the excesses of contemporary rock and were too young for middle of the road fare; there was only one radio DJ taking a deep dive into this stuff on the BBC at the time. Things really didn't really change until the CD began to take off in 1984.
You’re describing the European situation perfectly, Paul, although I would add that it’s the early baby boomers 😁 Thanks for reading and reacting. Have a great weekend!
Reading your post it made me realize how seldom I listen to his music today. I really liked it back in the late 70s and early 80s though! Favorites would probably be the big U.S. hits: Lowdown, Lido Shuffle (although I never have been able to figure out those lyrics!), Breakdown Dead Ahead, and Jojo. The last one Frank, in particular really likes as we heard it a couple times on our journey back from Palm Springs!
I always knew Frank had impeccable taste 😁 I love his ballads as well. “We’re All Alone”, which later became a hit in Rita Coolidge’s version, is also one of my favorites. Thanks for reading and reacting, Dan. Have a great weekend!
And this is why it was so important for Punk to come and revitalize Rock and Roll, which by the mid-70’s was quickly becoming Granny music! Where was the rebelliousness that had been present just 15 to 20 years prior? How did this music represent teen angst? Where was the ambition and drive to change the world?
The Ramones first, and then everything that followed were like the EMT’s electric paddles to the heart of the music!
Interesting perspective 😁 I do think punk played a role, especially in the UK, where it shook up the musical landscape a bit and reintroduced a certain raw energy and urgency.
That said, I sometimes feel its impact gets overstated a little, particularly when people frame it as the sole force that “saved” music. In the US, its influence felt far more limited and underground at the time, and if you look at the broader American rock scene into the early eighties, it still seems every bit as corporate and polished as the rock of the mid-seventies.
So I’ve always wondered, beyond the attitude and aesthetics, how much did punk really change in the mainstream?
Punk was the cue ball on the pool table at the break shot. I agree that it was pretty fringe. But without it, all those new wave and alternative rock bands of the ‘80s, and later grunge too would not have been.
In various places around the world it also had a social impact far larger than you’d have thought it could based on the size of its audience; politically, in fashion, and in other arts.
Before I started researching for this newsletter, I had exactly the same assumption, that punk was a massive force in shaping what came next. One of my biggest surprises during the research was discovering that its impact was not quite as large or as universally important as it is often made out to be.
Sure, it contributed important things, especially the DIY spirit and the idea that you did not need to be a virtuoso to make music. But particularly in the US, its actual influence was relatively limited. The late seventies New Wave and No Wave scenes in New York arguably proved far more consequential.
Another thing that struck me is how many similarities there are between the rise of disco and the rise of punk. That is definitely on my radar, and I plan to write about it further down the line.
Grunge falls a little outside my usual scope, although I was working in the music industry during that period. I know many artists later cited punk as a major influence, but I sometimes feel they were referring more to an idealised version of punk than the reality of what it actually was.
And perhaps that is the key point, it is that idealised version that keeps making people treat punk as the be all and end all, when in truth the story is more nuanced than that.